Curse

upier · Dec 04, 2009, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The "overpowered" part of mark of pain comes in part from hundred blades and whirlwind attack having that odd effect and in part the fact that AI is just too stupid to not ball up.

MoP is probably more effective in PvE play than it should be, but it isn't the fault of the skill itself, just like empathy, spiteful spirit, VoR, and anything else AI lends itself weakness too.

If we argue that the stupidity of the foes is reason enough not to change a skill - then we can might as well argue that because SF has counters it's not really too strong.

Given the game we are playing right now with the skills available and the foes we go against MoP is dealing damage that shouldn't be possible.
Is that reason enough to trash it?
Like I said, meh.
Would the game be more balanced without it?
Yes.
Does that even matter?
Not really.

But to come here and argue that killing groups of 30 foes with one swing is somehow balanced ... well .. that's just insane. It's like "SR is NOT overpowered" all over again.

Tenebrae · Dec 04, 2009, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/N_Raptor_Farmer

The problem with SF is that it allows something that shouldn't be possible. And the amount of damage MoP outputs also shouldn't be possible.

Yeah SS is also run in farming builds , lets nerf it too and with that another 20 or more skills. Also you would have in some terms "a point" if that build could be used to farm anywhere.
If i make a build to farm Hidras with Soldier Stance and Healing skills , that elite should be nerfed ? ...... see my point ?. Theres a line between "extremely good and effective if used well and your party is dedicated to it" and "overpowered without a doubt" and without a doubt MoP did not cross it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Erm... yes?
That was my point.

Or mine , i posted in #26 saying almost the same , anyway it doesnt matter .

Improvavel · Dec 04, 2009, 02:52 PM // 14:52

It is a strong skill - but with stuff like SoH, GDW, OoP and EBSoH it isn't particularly strong, with some pros with loads of amassed enemies and cons when there are fewer enemies.

Reverend Dr · Dec 05, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But to come here and argue that killing groups of 30 foes with one swing is somehow balanced ... well .. that's just insane. It's like "SR is NOT overpowered" all over again.

Stop thinking we're all masterbating over how awesome is SF. Reactive conditional damage (curses line, most of the domination line, everything that isn't just "deal X damage") is going to be more powerful in PvE than PvP. Lets balance it all for PvE and suddenly noen of it is going to have a place in PvP where opponents don't ball up and constantly trigger conditional damage. While hex stack is a rather degenerate build, forcing the game to just "hounour balance" is not going to make the game good either.

SF works under a completely different MO. SF is invulnerability, okay maybe not complete invulnerability, but it allows one to ignore some (if not all) aspects of the game. Whether they let you ignore attacks, spells, conditions, or any other aspect of gameplay, such things should simply not exist in an MMO (this is easily expanded to include ob flesh, spellbreaker, vow of silence, avatar of melandru and others). Such things just don't belong in an MMO.

What you have issue with is how MoP stacks with whirlwind and hundred blades. Like most people on this board you get angry, oh so angry and you lash out at what you see causing this problem; like most others when they lash out, you fail to see where the real issue is: the way whirlwind and hundred blades work together. Take that raptor farm build, MoP is only used to kill the boss, whirlwind + hundred is enough to kill all of the babies; its whirlwild + hundred that is broken, not MoP.

EDIT: If the problem is stupidity of foes, then don't change the skill, change the stupidity of foes. Is addressing the root problem really that hard of a concept.

Apok Omen · Dec 05, 2009, 04:19 AM // 04:19

AI Update: no more than three foes will stand adjacent to each other.

Solves a lot of problems and gimmicks.

Skye Marin · Dec 05, 2009, 04:48 AM // 04:48

It's true that (Hundred Blades + Sun and Moon + Whirlwind Attack + Adrenaline Management) x 3 + Mark of Pain + Assassin's Promise + mob pulling and balling + an AoE Snare is powerful...

but man...

...that's a whole lot of plusses.

upier · Dec 05, 2009, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yeah SS is also run in farming builds , lets nerf it too and with that another 20 or more skills. Also you would have in some terms "a point" if that build could be used to farm anywhere.
If i make a build to farm Hidras with Soldier Stance and Healing skills , that elite should be nerfed ? ...... see my point ?. Theres a line between "extremely good and effective if used well and your party is dedicated to it" and "overpowered without a doubt" and without a doubt MoP did not cross it.

What you are describing as "dedicating your party to it" is what I describe as a "team build". And the funny thing is that "team builds" are KINDA the point of GW.
MoP deals damage that shouldn't be possible.
Otherwise we might as well get the old Splinter back, we might as well get CoP back, .... because if MoP-like damage is balanced then there really can be no such thing as too much damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Stop thinking we're all masturbating over how awesome is SF. Reactive conditional damage (curses line, most of the domination line, everything that isn't just "deal X damage") is going to be more powerful in PvE than PvP. Lets balance it all for PvE and suddenly noen of it is going to have a place in PvP where opponents don't ball up and constantly trigger conditional damage. While hex stack is a rather degenerate build, forcing the game to just "honour balance" is not going to make the game good either.

SF works under a completely different MO. SF is invulnerability, okay maybe not complete invulnerability, but it allows one to ignore some (if not all) aspects of the game. Whether they let you ignore attacks, spells, conditions, or any other aspect of gameplay, such things should simply not exist in an MMO (this is easily expanded to include ob flesh, spellbreaker, vow of silence, avatar of melandru and others). Such things just don't belong in an MMO.

What you have issue with is how MoP stacks with whirlwind and hundred blades. Like most people on this board you get angry, oh so angry and you lash out at what you see causing this problem; like most others when they lash out, you fail to see where the real issue is: the way whirlwind and hundred blades work together. Take that raptor farm build, MoP is only used to kill the boss, whirlwind + hundred is enough to kill all of the babies; its whirlwild + hundred that is broken, not MoP.

EDIT: If the problem is stupidity of foes, then don't change the skill, change the stupidity of foes. Is addressing the root problem really that hard of a concept.

No, what I have an issue with is MoP. (That doesn't mean that WA+HB is ok. Why is it impossible to have multiple things broken in this game?) Even if you are just running a few minions or some spear chuckers MoP will be dealing damage that isn't comparatively balanced. The raptor farmer just takes it to the extreme.

And considering how Splinter was changed because of this exact same issue, what makes MoP, a skill that functions under the same rule, so different that not only does it not justify a change but rather it's also not even overpowered?

Reverend Dr · Dec 05, 2009, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Splinter was changed because of VoD. It said so much in the update notes. I dug it up last time someone talked out of line about splinter, I don't feel like doing it again.

While splinter weapon has found a use in PvP, Mark of Pain has not ever. This is because humans aren't dumb. You want to change a skill because it is the AI that is dumb. That is addressing the symptom not the problem and it leads to nowhere good.

Tenebrae · Dec 05, 2009, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What you are describing as "dedicating your party to it" is what I describe as a "team build". And the funny thing is that "team builds" are KINDA the point of GW.

Let me describe you another definition you seem to miss :
- Overpowered Skill : A skill of X type ( hex in this case ) that has more power IN ALL CASES , CONDITIONS and TEAM BUILDs than the REST of the skills of the same type.

Does MoP fit that definition ? no. The Answers ? check #26 .

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

MoP deals damage that shouldn't be possible.
Otherwise we might as well get the old Splinter back, we might as well get CoP back, .... because if MoP-like damage is balanced then there really can be no such thing as too much damage.

Let me remind you another thing , you know that when the MoP'ed target is attacked to trigger the hex .... it dies right ? because of so many hits. You are talking as the same hexed foe is dealing 5k damage in 10 seconds. You cant bring "AP kills recharge time" here because thats an AP "issue" that works with ALL skills ingame including PvE ones . And if you are going to mark MoP as "overpowered" oh boy , you are going to use that mark 20+ times.

PS: Seriously ,bringing up Raptor farming builds is pointless.

upier · Dec 05, 2009, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Splinter was changed because of VoD. It said so much in the update notes. I dug it up last time someone talked out of line about splinter, I don't feel like doing it again.

While splinter weapon has found a use in PvP, Mark of Pain has not ever. This is because humans aren't dumb. You want to change a skill because it is the AI that is dumb. That is addressing the symptom not the problem and it leads to nowhere good.

The dev update in question:

Quote:

Splinter Weapon has turned the Victory or Death period in Guild vs. Guild matches into an NPC bloodbath. This in turn has lessened importance of early tactical maneuvers to kill NPCs earlier in the match. The new target limit should keep its power in check for this situation. Even so, we know that Splinter Weapon has been a favorite skill in high-end PvE and will be watching this change closely.

So help me out a bit with this. If I understand correctly, Splinter caused NPCs to blow up. Way to much damage, way to fast.
I am guessing this is what you meant with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

VoD NPC balling as was the case with splinter and the tiebreaker as was the case with Finale of Restoration.

So, what's the difference with the MoP issue?
That it was used in PvP?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Let me describe you another definition you seem to miss :
- Overpowered Skill : A skill of X type ( hex in this case ) that has more power IN ALL CASES , CONDITIONS and TEAM BUILDs than the REST of the skills of the same type.

Does MoP fit that definition ? no. The Answers ? check #26 .

And we are done.

Reverend Dr · Dec 05, 2009, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So, what's the difference with the MoP issue?

No difference. Both cases are cases of AI being dumb and balling. Both cases are cases of the skill itself not being the root of the problem. Both cases are cases where addressing the skill will leave the problem intact and with the problem intact future issues will arise.

Is "Addressing the problem" such a hard concept to grasp?

upier · Dec 05, 2009, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

No difference. Both cases are cases of AI being dumb and balling. Both cases are cases of the skill itself not being the root of the problem. Both cases are cases where addressing the skill will leave the problem intact and with the problem intact future issues will arise.

Is "Addressing the problem" such a hard concept to grasp?

What are the realistic chances of them fixing the core issue?
And what happens if they do NOT address the problem?
Is MoP balanced in such a case?

I pretty much based my opinion on the premise that they do not have the resources nor the willpower to fix the core issues.

Xenomortis · Dec 05, 2009, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Stop thinking we're all masterbating over how awesome is SF.

He said SR, not SF. Soul Reaping is not Shadow Form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Is "Addressing the problem" such a hard concept to grasp?

The problem is not an easy issue to address.
Whatever happens, we're going to be facing an AI and that AI will follow a predictable set of rules. Ok, so some set of rules will be better than others, but humans will always learn to take advantage of them.

I would prefer a small bandage now, rather than wait 2 years for surgery that may never come.
I would like both, but the bandage is more likely to arrive.

Sethellington · Dec 05, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

In PvE. Its scatter doesn't seem to be enough for it's deadly onslaught. It can make "the entire screen exploooooooooode" in seconds.

that's a good thing !

BadgerzFTW · Dec 05, 2009, 06:19 PM // 18:19

No for MoP nerf.
Yes for Barbs buff.

Reverend Dr · Dec 05, 2009, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

He said SR, not SF. Soul Reaping is not Shadow Form.

I would prefer a small bandage now, rather than wait 2 years for surgery that may never come.

No he said SF.

Please lets bandage this one skill while all the far more gamebreaking ones run amok! Please lets get another bandage rather than proper fix, when bandage updates are what took this game from a large worldwide audience, to the garbage that is still playing today.

Sir Tieger · Dec 05, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

what most of you fail to realise when trying to compare MoP to Splinter is the fact one is removable and the other isnt.

Hence yes Splinter was broken due to the fact its a weapon spell IT IS NOT REMOVABLE!

MoP on the other hand...

upier · Dec 05, 2009, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

No he said SF.

The post where you quoted me I said SR.
And meant SR.

Reverend Dr · Dec 06, 2009, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If we argue that the stupidity of the foes is reason enough not to change a skill - then we can might as well argue that because SF has counters it's not really too strong.

This is not to say that SF is good, this is to say that you can't even read your own posts correctly.

upier · Dec 06, 2009, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

This is not to say that SF is good, this is to say that you can't even read your own posts correctly.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=85
The part you quoted before had SR in it.